2009-11-07T10:59:03 OK 2009-11-07T10:59:16 Welcome everybody, and thank you so much for coming. 2009-11-07T10:59:29 I will skip the usual preamble, as there is not too much to report. 2009-11-07T10:59:40 We haven't broken a lot of ground with gamewiki.com, and that is mostly my fault. 2009-11-07T10:59:56 We hope to get a dev environment established in the near future. 2009-11-07T10:59:59 Next week if possible. 2009-11-07T11:00:09 So we have a few things to figure out today. 2009-11-07T11:00:38 Pardon me while I pull up the abxy forum post 2009-11-07T11:01:31 OK, the agenda will be as follows: 1) External images, 2) Follow-up to sysop response to bad edits, and then the bigger discussion, 3) site scope. 2009-11-07T11:01:42 Prod, would you like to address the first topic? 2009-11-07T11:01:49 Sure 2009-11-07T11:01:54 so the first topic relates to this thread: 2009-11-07T11:01:54 http://forums.abxy.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=26451 2009-11-07T11:02:23 Essentially, leaving external images wide open is relatively dangerous 2009-11-07T11:02:40 our sysops do a good job patrolling to make sure nothing is up that shouldn't be 2009-11-07T11:02:52 but we now have technical functionality to make it easier/safer 2009-11-07T11:03:03 In a recent update 2009-11-07T11:03:16 they added an external image whitelist 2009-11-07T11:03:17 http://strategywiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki:External_image_whitelist 2009-11-07T11:03:33 meaning we can selectively allow external images from specific sites 2009-11-07T11:04:26 *** Prod has quit IRC 2009-11-07T11:04:38 whoops 2009-11-07T11:04:45 *** Prod has joined #SW-Meeting 2009-11-07T11:04:48 Prod will be right back. 2009-11-07T11:04:51 there he is. 2009-11-07T11:04:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +qo Prod Prod 2009-11-07T11:05:22 Any objections? 2009-11-07T11:05:42 Object to using the whitelist? 2009-11-07T11:05:43 What will it look like on pages? 2009-11-07T11:05:44 .:14·07·19:. «~Prod» So, if there aren't any objections 2009-11-07T11:05:44 .:14·07·29:. «~Prod» we will be enabling this over the weekend 2009-11-07T11:06:20 Disabling all external images except what is allowed through this whitelist 2009-11-07T11:06:35 najzere: external images that aren't in the whitelist will appear as a link to that image instead of showing the image itself 2009-11-07T11:06:54 Oh, cool. 2009-11-07T11:07:03 I don't object external images at all 2009-11-07T11:07:11 For the fact we can host them on the wiki 2009-11-07T11:07:16 exactly 2009-11-07T11:07:21 I recommend it, mainly because external images are outisde out control. 2009-11-07T11:07:24 I don't object to the whitelist. 2009-11-07T11:07:36 same 2009-11-07T11:07:38 Any rules for adding to the whitelist? 2009-11-07T11:07:49 for now 2009-11-07T11:07:51 Yeah, we should lay them out prettyclearly. 2009-11-07T11:07:59 i'm suggesting we stick to only major sets 2009-11-07T11:08:03 not for the single exceptions 2009-11-07T11:08:09 Ok any issues with my Devibot RSS feeder? 2009-11-07T11:08:12 so internal images 2009-11-07T11:08:25 What's the reason for that? 2009-11-07T11:08:26 and youtube (since we use them a lot) 2009-11-07T11:08:28 Deviance: we'll bring that up later 2009-11-07T11:09:08 Naj: ease of management I would assume. 2009-11-07T11:09:16 the main reason we're using internal images right now is so they don't link to the image page 2009-11-07T11:09:38 Okay, well maybe we can discuss it on the talk page. 2009-11-07T11:09:46 I like the whitelist too. 2009-11-07T11:10:21 Prod: you mean external images? And also, there is now a link= parameter for internal images, so we don't need externals for that now anyway 2009-11-07T11:10:27 right 2009-11-07T11:10:31 so i was just about to bring that up :) 2009-11-07T11:10:42 images can now link to specific pages instead of just their image page 2009-11-07T11:10:46 w00t 2009-11-07T11:10:57 What's the syntax? 2009-11-07T11:11:07 [[File:Image.png|link=??]] 2009-11-07T11:11:12 Yeah. 2009-11-07T11:11:13 [[File:Image.jpg|link=Some page|description goeth hereth]] 2009-11-07T11:11:23 Let me know if anyone figures out how to change the tooltip text. 2009-11-07T11:11:28 It's ugly for on-page anchors. 2009-11-07T11:11:36 http://strategywiki.org/wiki/The_Dog_Island/Fish_Collector#Fish_Collector_book 2009-11-07T11:11:43 you can look at the example there 2009-11-07T11:11:55 najzere: you set a description 2009-11-07T11:12:07 *** Sigma7_ has joined #SW-Meeting 2009-11-07T11:12:08 [[File:Image.png|link=#foo|foo]] 2009-11-07T11:12:17 Hey Sigma! 2009-11-07T11:12:18 Naj: you 2009-11-07T11:12:18 I tried that on Template:System browser. 2009-11-07T11:12:26 Hm... 2009-11-07T11:12:26 Didn't work. 2009-11-07T11:12:42 iirc it doesn't work on 1.15, but works on 1.16... 2009-11-07T11:12:44 By the way, completion stage images now link to the appropriate categories. 2009-11-07T11:12:46 try it on a wikimedia wiki 2009-11-07T11:12:52 Heh. 2009-11-07T11:12:53 like mediawiki.org or english wikipedia 2009-11-07T11:13:15 Awesome 2009-11-07T11:13:23 *** Sigma7 has quit IRC 2009-11-07T11:13:29 *** Sigma7_ is now known as Sigma7 2009-11-07T11:13:49 Naj: what didn't work on System Browser? It doesn't use on-page anchors... 2009-11-07T11:14:37 I know...Heh. 2009-11-07T11:14:44 The image link for "Other". 2009-11-07T11:14:45 I want to keep the momentum going here, 2009-11-07T11:14:49 Wanted it to say "Other". 2009-11-07T11:14:53 Not Category:systems. 2009-11-07T11:14:53 So if there's more to figure out about it, 2009-11-07T11:15:07 we can delve into it further in the Staff Lounge. 2009-11-07T11:15:21 external images are now disabled and based on the whitelist 2009-11-07T11:15:21 But for a consensus, everyone is cool with the whitelist? 2009-11-07T11:15:26 Aye 2009-11-07T11:15:40 yay whitelist :) 2009-11-07T11:15:47 Aye 2009-11-07T11:16:03 eye 2009-11-07T11:16:06 http://strategywiki.org/wiki/World_of_Pirates/Maps 2009-11-07T11:16:16 You can see what it did to the external image there 2009-11-07T11:16:21 yeah, looks good. 2009-11-07T11:16:23 it has now been switched to a link 2009-11-07T11:16:33 *** Sigma7 has quit IRC 2009-11-07T11:16:46 Cool,. 2009-11-07T11:17:01 OK, 2009-11-07T11:17:09 I'm sure as we continue to use it, 2009-11-07T11:17:12 questions may arise, 2009-11-07T11:17:19 but we can field them offline. 2009-11-07T11:17:47 The next agenda topic is just to follow up our discussion in Staff Lounge about our responses to bad edits. 2009-11-07T11:18:09 I have noticed particular efforts by Naj and NMH to personalize their requests a little more, 2009-11-07T11:18:17 and I really appreciate that effort. 2009-11-07T11:18:33 There's no real way to discern how much difference that approach makes, 2009-11-07T11:18:46 Any bit probably helps... 2009-11-07T11:18:59 And I think with RobJ, there was no way we could satisfy him. 2009-11-07T11:19:04 He had an ax to grind, 2009-11-07T11:19:28 Well thats a different issue. 2009-11-07T11:19:29 I don't know how much there is to discuss, 2009-11-07T11:19:38 but does anyone have any thoughts on the topic? 2009-11-07T11:19:42 http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Category_talk:Message_templates 2009-11-07T11:19:44 For later. 2009-11-07T11:19:50 well theres a few "messages" i'd prefer we stopped using 2009-11-07T11:19:55 Such as? 2009-11-07T11:19:58 the "stop many edits to the same page" 2009-11-07T11:19:59 It's something I believe we should have a unified approach on. 2009-11-07T11:20:26 I'm okay with Template:Consolidate going away 2009-11-07T11:20:27 right now the reasoning is "it makes our life easier to not have to go through so many edits" 2009-11-07T11:20:31 which is a terrible reason 2009-11-07T11:20:44 I thought it had more to do with the history... 2009-11-07T11:20:59 that reason is a bit more elegant, but i don't think it's helpful 2009-11-07T11:21:17 Yeah, we should probably just be happy they're editing at all. :) 2009-11-07T11:21:18 Yeah it makes us seem rude. 2009-11-07T11:21:19 all our histories become a mess eventually, but it's really just there for tracking 2009-11-07T11:21:23 exactly 2009-11-07T11:21:25 however 2009-11-07T11:21:36 the suggestion should be that they can use the edit link at the top 2009-11-07T11:21:39 and show preview 2009-11-07T11:21:47 so that they don't have to keep waiting for page loads 2009-11-07T11:21:49 *** Sigma7 has joined #SW-Meeting 2009-11-07T11:21:57 that helps them 2009-11-07T11:22:02 Right, cut out the part about why we want you to do it, and just promote better editing techniques. 2009-11-07T11:22:05 it should be worded less forcefully, giving them the impression that it is in their best interest to consolidate edits, not ours 2009-11-07T11:22:18 something like what Prod said is good 2009-11-07T11:22:42 Yes, less forceful and more on their side is a good idea for all the message templates. 2009-11-07T11:22:51 indeed 2009-11-07T11:23:43 On the subject... 2009-11-07T11:23:46 Using automated templates, we shouldn't be authoritative, just informative. 2009-11-07T11:23:52 I don't want to see all templates going away. 2009-11-07T11:24:08 I agree, they are too useful. 2009-11-07T11:24:11 I know "personalized messages" are good, but in the end we'll be saying the same thing over and over and it becomes a template anyway. 2009-11-07T11:24:33 "Randomized template message". 2009-11-07T11:24:50 right 2009-11-07T11:25:01 On the message template category talk page I suggested not using the second and third round of templates, but instead using personal messages for any time you have to reiterate something. 2009-11-07T11:25:09 {{consolidate}} << needs to be fixed though 2009-11-07T11:25:33 The issue is that we offend people when we say "do it this way because it annoys me/us". It should be "do it this way because it's the better way." 2009-11-07T11:26:50 OK, 2009-11-07T11:27:02 we'll make fixing the consolidate msg an action item. 2009-11-07T11:27:21 Would anyone like to take that on? 2009-11-07T11:27:40 lol 2009-11-07T11:27:41 ij 2009-11-07T11:27:42 ok 2009-11-07T11:27:46 We'll jump on it after the meeting 2009-11-07T11:27:49 We'll come back to it. 2009-11-07T11:27:51 Cool. 2009-11-07T11:27:53 *** Sigma7 has quit IRC 2009-11-07T11:28:00 Wow, S7 is having a difficult time. 2009-11-07T11:28:08 OK, then before we open the meeting up, 2009-11-07T11:28:14 wait 2009-11-07T11:28:19 it's time to discuss the scope issue... 2009-11-07T11:28:21 ok 2009-11-07T11:28:23 there is still one issue on sysop responses 2009-11-07T11:28:27 banning 2009-11-07T11:28:47 What about it specifically? 2009-11-07T11:28:52 some sysops warn, others just ban right away on vandalism type edits, we need to figure out what we should do 2009-11-07T11:29:07 I believe there's a policy up on the sysop page 2009-11-07T11:29:08 According to the admin guide, it's three warnings then a 2 hour ban. 2009-11-07T11:29:16 I think our current policy is pretty good. 2009-11-07T11:29:19 hmm, ok 2009-11-07T11:29:22 three warnings? 2009-11-07T11:29:24 Naj: thats' for registered users. 2009-11-07T11:29:27 It's not followed all that well. 2009-11-07T11:29:29 Not for anons 2009-11-07T11:29:38 that seems a bit much 2009-11-07T11:29:38 Yes, IPs usually get blocked preemptively. 2009-11-07T11:29:45 Anon users: case by case basis has been the procedure, correct? 2009-11-07T11:29:49 Depending on the vandalism 2009-11-07T11:29:52 True 2009-11-07T11:29:53 something like that 2009-11-07T11:29:59 depending on the vandalism, there's a escalation procedure 2009-11-07T11:30:02 ie, few hours 2009-11-07T11:30:04 Rocky: too much as in too nice or too harsh? 2009-11-07T11:30:06 if they return then few days 2009-11-07T11:30:10 If an anon vandalizes an MS page, I ban them for 1-3 months. 2009-11-07T11:30:12 too nice 2009-11-07T11:30:12 (or something like that) 2009-11-07T11:30:22 we still need newbies 2009-11-07T11:30:35 Rocky: It's to show benefit of the doubt. 2009-11-07T11:30:40 Actually, you know, 2009-11-07T11:30:46 I wasn't going to weigh in too much on this, 2009-11-07T11:30:50 Rocky: It takes a while, but I've had users come around with the third message that ensuing infractions will be bannable. 2009-11-07T11:30:50 but one thing I will say, 2009-11-07T11:31:13 is that I was actually very happy with some of the consensus that came out of that discussion, 2009-11-07T11:31:16 specifically, 2009-11-07T11:31:23 that we are a project, 2009-11-07T11:31:50 and we don't exist for the sake of allowing everyone and anyone to contribute what they want. 2009-11-07T11:31:53 We have standards, 2009-11-07T11:32:06 and I think we do our utmost to make those standards easy to follow. 2009-11-07T11:32:17 Well, that's the goal. 2009-11-07T11:32:18 We don't officiate what people put on walkthrough pages, 2009-11-07T11:32:31 we just ask that they at least add a header and footer nav. 2009-11-07T11:32:41 NMH: Which is? 2009-11-07T11:33:04 *** Procyon has quit IRC 2009-11-07T11:33:10 Make it easy to edit, allow some transparency, etc. We don't have an official vision so it's hard for me to say what it is. 2009-11-07T11:33:27 *** Procyon has joined #SW-Meeting 2009-11-07T11:33:31 Sorry... 2009-11-07T11:33:39 But what I'm saying is that we try to do something for a reason, but whether we do it well or not... that reflects our success. 2009-11-07T11:33:59 Goal: [11:36] Make it easy to edit, allow some transparency, etc. We don't have an official vision so it's hard for me to say what it is. 2009-11-07T11:34:12 i think we under-utilize short bans 2009-11-07T11:34:20 Well, I thin kour vision is pretty solid. 2009-11-07T11:34:20 definitely 2009-11-07T11:34:23 most vandals are just here to be: "oh cool we can edit lets break something" 2009-11-07T11:34:47 but if they're banned for a few hours 2009-11-07T11:34:47 right, so, keep the current policy is the general consensus then? 2009-11-07T11:34:51 they will move on to something else 2009-11-07T11:34:57 except with relaxed bans for anons 2009-11-07T11:35:05 one other point 2009-11-07T11:35:12 i think sigma7 was doing this 2009-11-07T11:35:17 but using the 18 hour ban 2009-11-07T11:35:18 Relaxed as in ban them more or less? 2009-11-07T11:35:29 najzere: relaxed as in shorter ban times 2009-11-07T11:35:43 Does anyone know of a good way to get a feel for what "the internet" has to say about SW in general? 2009-11-07T11:35:44 Small bans = made your point, now I will listen. 2009-11-07T11:35:46 Better fit for their attention spans. 2009-11-07T11:35:49 like, the first offense might be a few hours or a day instead of a month 2009-11-07T11:35:51 though i'd prefer if sigma was around to go into detail on that one 2009-11-07T11:36:05 Procyon: polls! cause those are ALWAYS unbiased 2009-11-07T11:36:10 2009-11-07T11:36:12 Proc: most people who use it as a reader don't know us at all. 2009-11-07T11:36:19 Well, the internet would have to know about us first... 2009-11-07T11:36:28 Skiz: I don't know, when you see an anon edit something with "Ur gay, fuck you", I have no problem banning them for a month. 2009-11-07T11:36:42 yes, it'd still be case by case 2009-11-07T11:36:51 but even that i'd say is only a few hour ban 2009-11-07T11:37:03 Really? 2009-11-07T11:37:06 Yeah why not? 2009-11-07T11:37:10 they're just passing through and couldn't figure out anything better to say 2009-11-07T11:37:25 if they come back 2009-11-07T11:37:26 Cuz we're saying "come back in a few hours to insult us again." 2009-11-07T11:37:29 it shows up they were banned before 2009-11-07T11:37:31 I personally don't even bother banning IPs unless I see they have other contribs/deleted contribs. 2009-11-07T11:37:32 Some vandalism is just for fun, and the person could turn around and help later. 2009-11-07T11:37:33 and then make it longer 2009-11-07T11:37:50 ok 2009-11-07T11:38:15 most people haven't seen editing live content, and want to see what happens 2009-11-07T11:38:26 OK, I think we have a good consensus on this for now. 2009-11-07T11:38:41 We can readdress if any further issues arise. 2009-11-07T11:38:44 Seems like we're all over the board to me. 2009-11-07T11:38:52 Really? 2009-11-07T11:38:57 Hmm... 2009-11-07T11:39:04 Uh. What's the consensus? 2009-11-07T11:39:05 well, we don't have time to discuss this at the moment 2009-11-07T11:39:10 Start with hour bans? 2009-11-07T11:39:14 Okay. 2009-11-07T11:39:15 perhaps bring it to the forums or staff lounge again 2009-11-07T11:39:24 Well, we can use the time however we see fit, 2009-11-07T11:39:38 http://strategywiki.org/wiki/StrategyWiki:Guide/Admin_guide#Banning_and_Unbanning_Users 2009-11-07T11:39:38 although if we wish to keep the meetings short, than Skiz's suggestion is wise. 2009-11-07T11:39:42 follow the policy i believe 2009-11-07T11:40:08 Any objections? 2009-11-07T11:40:17 Or proposed changes to the policy as it stands? 2009-11-07T11:40:52 ok 2009-11-07T11:41:03 We'll double back to this if necessary. 2009-11-07T11:41:08 Primarily, 2009-11-07T11:41:19 I just felt it was a good idea to keep it on people's minds. 2009-11-07T11:41:26 So now we get to the scope issue./ 2009-11-07T11:41:53 ================== Scope ======================== 2009-11-07T11:42:06 I did my best to summarize the questionable game types on the forum. 2009-11-07T11:42:17 Wow NMH, that's like a level 17 header o_O; 2009-11-07T11:42:19 ^_^ 2009-11-07T11:42:31 On topic plz XD 2009-11-07T11:42:45 sorry :) 2009-11-07T11:42:47 OK, 2009-11-07T11:43:01 The types that I could think of were as follows: 2009-11-07T11:43:32 Unlicensed games, ROM Hacks, Indie games, Fan games, Flash games, and to a lesser extent, emulators. 2009-11-07T11:43:56 We'll go through each of them, 2009-11-07T11:44:07 debate them briefly, 2009-11-07T11:44:10 and vote. 2009-11-07T11:44:18 So first up is unlicensed games. 2009-11-07T11:44:26 Is this necessary? 2009-11-07T11:44:34 Which> 2009-11-07T11:44:34 ? 2009-11-07T11:44:39 any other suggestions of how we would go about it? 2009-11-07T11:44:40 Is anyone going to only be for SOME of these and not others? 2009-11-07T11:44:48 I am, 2009-11-07T11:44:55 Okay, then, proceed sir. 2009-11-07T11:45:02 lol, ok :) 2009-11-07T11:45:06 I'm for unlicensed inclusion. 2009-11-07T11:45:11 Same 2009-11-07T11:45:27 Examples of unlisenced games are getting rarer these days, but famous examples include the Tengen and Color Dreams games for the NES. 2009-11-07T11:45:40 I'm fine with unlicensed 2009-11-07T11:45:46 Brazilian releases 2009-11-07T11:45:51 OK with me 2009-11-07T11:45:53 what's the definition of an unlicenesd game? 2009-11-07T11:45:57 To be honest, I had a difficult time coming up with examples of modern unlicensed games. 2009-11-07T11:46:03 A game that never was licensed by the console owner 2009-11-07T11:46:10 A license is a contractual agreement 2009-11-07T11:46:14 Prod: Any game released for a system without the system's manufacturer given permission. 2009-11-07T11:46:27 It defines how sales will be made, how the licensor has control over the game (censoring), etc. 2009-11-07T11:46:32 but they're made by "official game companies"? 2009-11-07T11:46:40 Not necessarily. 2009-11-07T11:46:44 The companies were real 2009-11-07T11:46:45 Some were, some weren't. 2009-11-07T11:46:57 I know of a guy making a Game Boy game right now. 2009-11-07T11:47:01 Pressing his own cartridges. 2009-11-07T11:47:11 Naj: Wouldn't that be considered an indie game? 2009-11-07T11:47:14 Or homebrew at the most. 2009-11-07T11:47:16 Oh! 2009-11-07T11:47:23 Homebrew is another category. 2009-11-07T11:47:24 Those categories aren't mutually exclusive. 2009-11-07T11:47:33 Homebrew/Indie = same thing 2009-11-07T11:47:42 Naj: Does he plan on selling it in cart format, or just releasing the OM on the net? 2009-11-07T11:47:43 Homebrew typically aren't published commercially 2009-11-07T11:47:44 ROM 2009-11-07T11:47:59 I'm not sure. 2009-11-07T11:48:10 I think he wants to sell it, but may be constrained by the legalities. 2009-11-07T11:48:12 OK, 2009-11-07T11:48:13 well, 2009-11-07T11:48:15 He's not based overseas. 2009-11-07T11:48:33 Alright hold off on the other sections at the moment 2009-11-07T11:48:39 I think you'd be super hard pressed to find an unlisenced game for the PS2/PS3, GameCube/Wii, Xbox/360. 2009-11-07T11:48:42 Prod did you have any other questions about unlicensed games? 2009-11-07T11:48:43 Let's state for the record that guides for all those categories are perfectly legal. 2009-11-07T11:48:46 Maybe for the PS1 and Dreamcast. 2009-11-07T11:48:56 Yes, that is true. 2009-11-07T11:49:01 True. We're mainly talking about older consoles. 2009-11-07T11:49:16 so...do we actually have a final definition on that? 2009-11-07T11:49:24 Given that circumstance, I have absolutely no problem including these. 2009-11-07T11:49:39 Game plays on a real system without the system owner's permission. 2009-11-07T11:49:43 Definition on what Prod? 2009-11-07T11:49:44 I don't think anyone does (except for Rob, who's puritanical stance was not shared by the rest of us.) 2009-11-07T11:50:03 (Procyon): except for me (well not as extreme) 2009-11-07T11:50:19 Prod: Remember how Nintendo put the "Nintendo Seal of Quality" on all licensed games? 2009-11-07T11:50:20 but unless we can properly classify the game into one of the categories 2009-11-07T11:50:27 there is no way it can be properly decided 2009-11-07T11:50:31 Oh, ok, I see what you mean: 2009-11-07T11:50:37 Unless we decide to include all of them. 2009-11-07T11:50:40 but then doesn't that fall into homebrew/indie? 2009-11-07T11:50:49 An unlicensed game would be a commercially sold game without the permission of the system manufacturer. 2009-11-07T11:51:02 It had to be sold in a store, in a box with documentation, like an official release, 2009-11-07T11:51:03 Indie games typically don't come from game development studios 2009-11-07T11:51:16 if they do, then later games from that company aren't indie games 2009-11-07T11:51:18 it just wasn't supported by Nintendo/Sony/Sega/M$, etc. 2009-11-07T11:51:20 ok, I would support unlicensed games by official game companies 2009-11-07T11:51:30 Haah. 2009-11-07T11:51:33 :) 2009-11-07T11:51:51 There's also a ton of hentai games for the Famicom that were unlicences. 2009-11-07T11:51:52 UNLICENSED GAMES: inclusion accepted.l 2009-11-07T11:51:55 unlicensed. 2009-11-07T11:52:15 tentacle rape ftw 2009-11-07T11:52:27 ok 2009-11-07T11:52:30 Najzere's got those ones covered. 2009-11-07T11:52:37 LOL 2009-11-07T11:52:38 * najzere nods smugly 2009-11-07T11:52:43 Next is ROM Hacks. 2009-11-07T11:52:49 Now, I have to admit, 2009-11-07T11:52:50 For inclusion. 2009-11-07T11:52:59 ROM Hacks should be excluded by default 2009-11-07T11:53:03 I'm for these if they are notable. 2009-11-07T11:53:05 this one is a sticky subject 2009-11-07T11:53:10 Procyon: agreed 2009-11-07T11:53:10 Heh. 2009-11-07T11:53:25 I'm for non-notable games as well. 2009-11-07T11:53:26 then you have to argue notability 2009-11-07T11:53:27 Gfx hacks are strictly out since there's nothing to talk about. 2009-11-07T11:53:44 To be included, ROM Hacks should present some measure of new game play or walkthrough advice. 2009-11-07T11:53:54 i'm not fond of rom hacks 2009-11-07T11:53:56 I'm going to remain neutral in this one 2009-11-07T11:54:20 Essentially, romhacking.net is the singe best resource for hacks that should be considered notable. 2009-11-07T11:54:39 Thebest example of a ROM Hack guide that we currently host is Mario Adventure. 2009-11-07T11:54:46 I'd rather get rid of notability requirements altogether. 2009-11-07T11:54:52 It is an incredible hack, with quality worthy of Nintendo. 2009-11-07T11:54:57 i'd rather get rid of rom hacks all together 2009-11-07T11:55:06 altogether * 2009-11-07T11:55:13 It also has a link to page where you can get the ROM hack on the front page of the guide. 2009-11-07T11:55:18 Super Mario Forever = a great game. ='( 2009-11-07T11:55:28 Naj: But then you open yourself up to Stupid hacks like "Super Toilet Bros." and "Super Booger Bros." etc. 2009-11-07T11:55:35 That's fine with me. 2009-11-07T11:55:35 how fun the game is, is irrelevant 2009-11-07T11:55:38 NMH: Thank you, that's the one I meant. 2009-11-07T11:55:42 * najzere opens himself up. 2009-11-07T11:55:48 lol 2009-11-07T11:55:55 * Prod shields his eyes 2009-11-07T11:56:01 Super Mario Forever is a great game. 2009-11-07T11:56:03 Now, 2009-11-07T11:56:03 * najzere wiggles it. 2009-11-07T11:56:04 Prod: I found Super Mario Forever through YouTube's audience 2009-11-07T11:56:07 A lot of people know about it 2009-11-07T11:56:24 in rom circles 2009-11-07T11:56:34 Prod: 2009-11-07T11:56:45 Not neccesarily, 2009-11-07T11:56:49 Can I saw something about consensus here? 2009-11-07T11:56:50 Really more in emulation circles. 2009-11-07T11:57:00 560,000 views: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ0nHxXeqzM 2009-11-07T11:57:02 (najzere): no getting violent 2009-11-07T11:57:15 I think the fact that these guides are being created all the time speaks higher of community consensus then us eight "regulars". 2009-11-07T11:57:24 ROM circles actually tend to exclude hacks, if you follow the No-Intro crowd. 2009-11-07T11:57:26 Apparently our community wants these. 2009-11-07T11:57:34 http://strategywiki.org/w/index.php?title=Super_Mario_Forever&action=history 2009-11-07T11:57:39 look who created the guide.... 2009-11-07T11:57:46 i don't see a non-regular on there 2009-11-07T11:57:50 There's more than one guide. 2009-11-07T11:58:03 Oh no, that's not the one I meant then. 2009-11-07T11:58:18 I meant this one; http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Mario_Adventure 2009-11-07T11:59:01 iT'S AN INCREDIBLE PIECE OF WORK. 2009-11-07T11:59:02 Whoops, 2009-11-07T11:59:05 sorry, caps... 2009-11-07T11:59:10 mario forever actually gets more hits than that one 2009-11-07T11:59:15 If we let someone join with Booger Mario or whatever, there's a greater chance they'll turn into a regular editor than if we delete what they were working on for scope. 2009-11-07T11:59:19 The other one is the Second Reality Project. 2009-11-07T11:59:30 I'm pretty sure Skierpage isnt' going to stick around when SM63 gets the boot. 2009-11-07T11:59:33 the guide may be good, the game may be fun 2009-11-07T11:59:37 but where do we cut it off? 2009-11-07T11:59:39 Najzere: I agree. 2009-11-07T11:59:45 This is another incredible hack: http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Super_Mario_World:_The_Second_Reality_Project_Reloaded 2009-11-07T11:59:45 We don't cut it off. 2009-11-07T11:59:51 SW is for editors, not administrators. 2009-11-07T12:00:01 Naj: if we already had the restrictive scope, he would never have come here. 2009-11-07T12:00:02 BUT 2009-11-07T12:00:07 SM63 is not a hack, 2009-11-07T12:00:08 it's a fan game 2009-11-07T12:00:19 I'm just talking about scope in general. 2009-11-07T12:00:25 Naj: I agree with you up to a certain point: 2009-11-07T12:00:45 Naj: We should be a little discresionary when it comes to what we include on the site. 2009-11-07T12:00:54 Why? 2009-11-07T12:01:01 Quality control. 2009-11-07T12:01:03 We're afraid of looking bad? 2009-11-07T12:01:04 Also, Half-Life: Decay has a hacked PC version (unofficial port). I don't see why we can't cover that. 2009-11-07T12:01:10 Look at the WoW page. 2009-11-07T12:01:16 Hugely popular and a disgraceful guide. 2009-11-07T12:01:22 wow has a better wiki out there 2009-11-07T12:01:28 we were late to the game 2009-11-07T12:01:28 Which we should be linking to 2009-11-07T12:01:31 SW isn't a magazine that people can flip through to see us as a whole. 2009-11-07T12:01:33 That's because MMO players basically go to MMO specific wikis 2009-11-07T12:01:36 (Notmyhandle): stay on topic ;) 2009-11-07T12:01:58 A well written guide about something no ones ever heard of can't hurt us. 2009-11-07T12:02:01 What I wouldn't have given to get FFXIcyclopedia when they jumped to wikia 2009-11-07T12:02:07 Maybe we should cut MMO's out of our scope too 2009-11-07T12:02:12 Heh. 2009-11-07T12:02:17 Bye MapleStory! 2009-11-07T12:02:23 NMH: If we lose Maple Story, we lose over a 1/3 of our traffic. 2009-11-07T12:02:33 I'm just saying, it doesn't make sense when we can't competew 2009-11-07T12:02:34 We need to encourage new MMO players to start their guides here. 2009-11-07T12:02:39 Listen to us: "let's cut this out" 2009-11-07T12:02:40 We got lucky with MapleStory 2009-11-07T12:02:51 How about "let's let editors edit" 2009-11-07T12:03:19 Along that train of thought 2009-11-07T12:03:26 We could have an inclusive policy 2009-11-07T12:03:35 Which, we basically already have 2009-11-07T12:03:57 The only games we've ever excluded weren't games at all 2009-11-07T12:04:24 Remember that moon base game? I think it was played on a forum 2009-11-07T12:04:49 But I can't remember any others that we've had to remove or deny 2009-11-07T12:04:54 What about the developers making a guide to get publicity for their game, (e.g Dreams of Deception)? 2009-11-07T12:05:02 Who cares? 2009-11-07T12:05:04 i don't think we're against publicity 2009-11-07T12:05:07 If the game is never made, remove it 2009-11-07T12:05:14 If the game is made, then have the guide 2009-11-07T12:05:20 As long as they're not spamming external links. 2009-11-07T12:05:23 Right 2009-11-07T12:05:23 as long as the guide satisfies our requirements, it could be a full ad 2009-11-07T12:05:38 But that's not a scope issue, and we have policies that define how we take action against that. 2009-11-07T12:05:39 and follows the rest of theg uideline 2009-11-07T12:05:40 s 2009-11-07T12:05:49 if we could get game companies to edit their own guides, that woudl be great 2009-11-07T12:05:55 The thing is, we're so small, advertisement would only help us. 2009-11-07T12:06:23 It's not like we have guides for guide websites. 2009-11-07T12:06:36 We're not sending people anywhere we don't want them to go. 2009-11-07T12:06:59 *** najzere is now known as naj-away 2009-11-07T12:07:09 we want to send people where they need to go, without relying on our competitors (as much as possible) 2009-11-07T12:07:12 Well, now I'm uncertain as to how productive this discussion will be. 2009-11-07T12:07:36 Extremely productive. 2009-11-07T12:07:46 i still want to kill off all rom hacks :) 2009-11-07T12:07:55 Why? 2009-11-07T12:08:07 because we're competing with the big boys 2009-11-07T12:08:10 Why not be the first rom-hack inclusive guide website? 2009-11-07T12:08:13 We can be bigger than the big boys 2009-11-07T12:08:31 *** Arrow has joined #SW-Meeting 2009-11-07T12:08:37 we're not trying to be bigger, we're trying to be better 2009-11-07T12:08:53 There's not really a reason to include or exclude the guides. 2009-11-07T12:08:57 Sorry for being late, I was out eating for my birthday. 2009-11-07T12:09:00 things like the completion lists are going to become a mess if we include everything 2009-11-07T12:09:01 To bolster that argument, it doesn't cost us anything to host those guides. 2009-11-07T12:09:08 Arrow: Mine's tomorrow ^_^ 2009-11-07T12:09:09 It comes down to what audience we want to attract and how many guides we want. 2009-11-07T12:09:12 Arrow; Happy birthday!@ 2009-11-07T12:09:17 it costs us people 2009-11-07T12:09:21 our sysops have limited time 2009-11-07T12:09:25 our editors have limited time 2009-11-07T12:09:26 My birthday was yesterday, actually. Thanks and happy birthday to you, Proc 2009-11-07T12:09:32 Thanks! ^_^ 2009-11-07T12:09:35 i'd rather they worked on real guides that more people are interested in 2009-11-07T12:09:43 Prod: our editors leave because we don't let them do what they want, and our editors leave because we let people do what they want. 2009-11-07T12:09:46 than these guides which get 10s of hits per day 2009-11-07T12:09:53 Prod: But they won't work on anything other than what they're interested in working on. 2009-11-07T12:10:00 Exactly 2009-11-07T12:10:11 bigger the audience a game has, more people are interested in it 2009-11-07T12:10:20 At least not until we finally establish a bounty system which we've been talking about for a year... 2009-11-07T12:10:30 That would change everything 2009-11-07T12:11:03 things like the completion lists 2009-11-07T12:11:07 if we included all the rom hacks 2009-11-07T12:11:12 they'd balloon like crazy 2009-11-07T12:11:28 I don't feel like we need to have completion lists for ROM Hacks. 2009-11-07T12:11:33 but then it would start filling other categories with games people haven't heard of 2009-11-07T12:11:41 and most people can't use without emulators 2009-11-07T12:11:44 We have completion lists for official releases because people want to know about that. 2009-11-07T12:12:00 and people don't want to know about rom hacks (careful trick question) 2009-11-07T12:12:04 And we stub crap like Nintendo Golf because it came out... 2009-11-07T12:12:16 Procyon: we would if we officially included them 2009-11-07T12:12:20 Prod: We don't have to be a resource for that information. 2009-11-07T12:12:22 Prod: that's just one category 2009-11-07T12:12:26 I.e. 1 console 2009-11-07T12:12:27 NMH: That's impossible to track. 2009-11-07T12:12:29 exactly 2009-11-07T12:12:39 One thing about ROM Hacks 2009-11-07T12:12:46 How is it impossible to track? 2009-11-07T12:12:49 There's only so many releases 2009-11-07T12:12:53 is that the public will be the arbitor of notability. 2009-11-07T12:13:10 If a hack is crappy, 2009-11-07T12:13:18 they are not likely to be inspired to write about it. 2009-11-07T12:13:31 (Except for the author who probably thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread.) 2009-11-07T12:13:44 same with a crappy official game 2009-11-07T12:13:59 Like Incantation 2009-11-07T12:14:05 *** naj-away is now known as najzere 2009-11-07T12:14:23 ok, 2009-11-07T12:14:28 let's come back to ROM Hacks in the end. 2009-11-07T12:14:29 Let's be honest. 2009-11-07T12:14:35 We're NOT competing with the big boys. 2009-11-07T12:14:43 Why not? 2009-11-07T12:14:44 We're nowhere near them. 2009-11-07T12:14:52 We're way down the chain 2009-11-07T12:14:54 Because we haven't built a user base yet. 2009-11-07T12:14:58 Who do you mean by them specifically? GFs? 2009-11-07T12:15:02 Which is what we should be focusing on. 2009-11-07T12:15:08 I mean do a search on any game name in google. 2009-11-07T12:15:09 Any guide site in the top 1,000 2009-11-07T12:15:13 We're on page four and five. 2009-11-07T12:15:23 Not true... 2009-11-07T12:15:26 Not all the time. 2009-11-07T12:15:41 And if you add Walkthrough to the search it helps considerably. 2009-11-07T12:15:51 That's another thing... 2009-11-07T12:15:52 actually 2009-11-07T12:15:57 If you search for Morrowind Strategy 2009-11-07T12:15:59 (najzere): our goal is to compete with them, just because we aren't doing the best right now, doesn't mean we should try 2009-11-07T12:16:00 I don't think empty walkthrough pages are helping us any. 2009-11-07T12:16:01 we're the first on the second page 2009-11-07T12:16:10 We need to be realistic before that, Prod. 2009-11-07T12:16:28 You can't just start out competing because you feel like it. 2009-11-07T12:16:33 course you can 2009-11-07T12:16:37 that's how it works 2009-11-07T12:16:38 I agree with Prod. 2009-11-07T12:16:41 Agreed 2009-11-07T12:16:45 We should have better content and better means to edit. 2009-11-07T12:16:47 We need something they don't have. 2009-11-07T12:16:50 We may not be succeeding to the degree we would like, 2009-11-07T12:16:54 but we're still actively doing it. 2009-11-07T12:16:55 We have MediaWiki 2009-11-07T12:17:03 lets not get too far off topic 2009-11-07T12:17:04 to this point 2009-11-07T12:17:05 We have different ideas of succeeding. 2009-11-07T12:17:06 we are working on it 2009-11-07T12:17:12 Mine don't depend on comparing us to other sites. 2009-11-07T12:17:13 but if we give up now 2009-11-07T12:17:15 there's no point 2009-11-07T12:17:27 How is it giving up to make your site as good as it can be? 2009-11-07T12:17:33 Naj: Would you like to propose them at the next meetin? 2009-11-07T12:17:40 Propose what? 2009-11-07T12:17:55 your ideas for success? 2009-11-07T12:18:09 he meant he has a different definition 2009-11-07T12:18:13 They're my ideas, I don't need them voted on. 2009-11-07T12:18:18 lol 2009-11-07T12:18:23 I will always judge SW on my own ideals. 2009-11-07T12:18:24 I'd still like to understand them. 2009-11-07T12:18:40 Well it starts by not focusing on driving people to our empty site. 2009-11-07T12:18:47 lol 2009-11-07T12:18:51 our site isn't empty 2009-11-07T12:18:52 But fixing and expanding what we have. 2009-11-07T12:18:55 we have MapleStory!!! 2009-11-07T12:18:57 Prod you know what he means 2009-11-07T12:18:59 (I'm trying to add content to it :( ) 2009-11-07T12:19:05 Has anyone been to GamerWiki? 2009-11-07T12:19:10 That site is ridiculous. 2009-11-07T12:19:16 What is it 2009-11-07T12:19:18 They have 15,000 more articles than us and they're all empty. 2009-11-07T12:19:30 WAit isn't that the site where some guys jacked our images? lol 2009-11-07T12:19:33 Yet they boast that they're high up on the list of MW sites. 2009-11-07T12:19:38 The fighting move icons 2009-11-07T12:19:39 (najzere): we used to discuss this as signal to noise 2009-11-07T12:19:44 to me, rom hacks are noise 2009-11-07T12:19:57 A ROM hack guide at completion stage 4? 2009-11-07T12:20:04 yes 2009-11-07T12:20:05 That's an alien thought to me. 2009-11-07T12:20:10 NMH: No, Shoryuken.com's wiki jacked our icons. 2009-11-07T12:20:15 ah 2009-11-07T12:20:35 Should we call them on it? 2009-11-07T12:20:42 they link back to us 2009-11-07T12:21:16 What about in terms of license and whatnot? 2009-11-07T12:21:17 (najzere): if there was decent scope limits on it, I may be convinced to allow rom hacks in 2009-11-07T12:21:20 otherwise, none of them 2009-11-07T12:21:46 Vague scope policy just leads to a bunch of these discussions. 2009-11-07T12:21:49 It has to be all or none. 2009-11-07T12:21:51 Rom hacks should be ok 2009-11-07T12:21:54 Prod: I agree with Naj that having exclusive content such as guides for notably good hacks would be a good draw of users. 2009-11-07T12:21:55 I have no problem with excluding anything 2009-11-07T12:21:56 If it's just a patch 2009-11-07T12:22:01 We just need to stand strong on why we are doing it 2009-11-07T12:22:04 (najzere): i'm saying none 2009-11-07T12:22:11 I know that. Heh. 2009-11-07T12:22:25 But you haven't said what it hurts to have them. 2009-11-07T12:22:30 OK, let's take a quick vote: 2009-11-07T12:22:30 Admin time? 2009-11-07T12:22:33 Wait 2009-11-07T12:22:36 Proc wait 2009-11-07T12:22:36 We're here to fix users' edits. 2009-11-07T12:22:43 Just really quick, not to close the conversation, 2009-11-07T12:22:46 but just to get a feel. 2009-11-07T12:22:47 Why do we care WHAT they're editing? 2009-11-07T12:22:47 Najzere's question is important 2009-11-07T12:22:57 You can say, All, None, or Some. 2009-11-07T12:22:59 We're here for editors, not guides. 2009-11-07T12:23:06 All 2009-11-07T12:23:11 none 2009-11-07T12:23:18 All > None 2009-11-07T12:23:20 Some 2009-11-07T12:23:28 Some > None 2009-11-07T12:23:37 * Procyon pokes Skiz 2009-11-07T12:23:40 All 2009-11-07T12:24:00 NMH: What's your personal choice though? 2009-11-07T12:24:14 What's the vote on again? ROM hacks? 2009-11-07T12:24:18 yes 2009-11-07T12:24:19 I feel like this whole discussion is dangerous, because we few people are deciding what a bunch of others are ALLOWED to put on the site. 2009-11-07T12:24:21 Instead of them choosing. 2009-11-07T12:24:26 all, none or some 2009-11-07T12:24:27 Supposedly we're an open project. 2009-11-07T12:24:31 (najzere): we set the rules 2009-11-07T12:24:36 no rules = mess 2009-11-07T12:24:47 So let's set rules as representatives then. 2009-11-07T12:24:56 Naj: FOr example, 2009-11-07T12:24:57 No individuals. 2009-11-07T12:25:01 Not* 2009-11-07T12:25:26 Naj: you know that game that came out in Germany about killing Jews? I certainly wouldn't want a guide for that appearing on SW. 2009-11-07T12:25:28 I personally have no interest in ever creating a ROM hack guide or indie game guide or whatever. 2009-11-07T12:25:57 Okay, well offensive to readers is a little more concrete, but it's still an opinion. 2009-11-07T12:26:02 Procyon: but you can kill Nazi's? That's offensive too 2009-11-07T12:26:15 You don't have to read the guid.e 2009-11-07T12:26:25 Just like you don't have to look at tentacle rape 2009-11-07T12:26:31 NMH: You mean Wolfenstein? 2009-11-07T12:26:34 Indeed 2009-11-07T12:26:34 Actually I DO...:( 2009-11-07T12:26:55 I guess it's a question of morality. 2009-11-07T12:26:59 There's that Columbine massacre game too. 2009-11-07T12:27:11 Right, I wouldn't want to see a guide for that either. 2009-11-07T12:27:11 Yeah, I'd rather we not be arbiter's of morality either. 2009-11-07T12:27:15 And the JFK shooter, did that one ever come out? 2009-11-07T12:27:16 Heh. 2009-11-07T12:27:20 i agree with najzere on that one 2009-11-07T12:27:29 we don't censor 2009-11-07T12:27:35 Wow, we really all do feel differently about things :) 2009-11-07T12:27:35 WP has articles on KKK, hitler, etc. 2009-11-07T12:27:44 I would expect WP to. 2009-11-07T12:27:51 They're factual. 2009-11-07T12:27:54 So are we 2009-11-07T12:27:57 Well, I'm just saying, we should come up with our inclusion rules in a vacuum. 2009-11-07T12:28:00 Remember our audience 2009-11-07T12:28:07 Wikipedia attracts researchers, we're just gamers 2009-11-07T12:28:09 Don't think of specific cases, but guidelines as a whole. 2009-11-07T12:28:12 Far more informal 2009-11-07T12:28:19 You'll get the good and bad with any policy. 2009-11-07T12:28:29 Arrow: How do you feel that should influence our policies? 2009-11-07T12:28:38 the point is to pick a line where you maximize good and minimize bad 2009-11-07T12:28:50 I don't see how excluding anything is good 2009-11-07T12:28:52 Naj: So there's no game out there that you feel SW should exclude? Not one? 2009-11-07T12:28:58 I'm not hearing a lot of minimizing bad from tightening scope. 2009-11-07T12:29:01 I think the major question here revolves around games that have an emphasis in politics, religion, or recent events 2009-11-07T12:29:04 Procyon: nope. 2009-11-07T12:29:07 Those excluded guides are just more views waiting to happen 2009-11-07T12:29:16 Maybe we should consider those three categories and break it down from there. 2009-11-07T12:29:18 I would support inclusion of "Kill Najzere Slowly". 2009-11-07T12:29:26 LMAO 2009-11-07T12:29:39 OMG no 2009-11-07T12:29:52 That's exactly what we SHOULDN'T be thinking of. 2009-11-07T12:30:10 Now you're talking like RobJ and you want to take a moral stance on these guides. 2009-11-07T12:30:26 i'd support kill naj slowly 2009-11-07T12:30:32 Heh. 2009-11-07T12:30:33 as long as it was released by an official company :) 2009-11-07T12:30:36 One possibility is that we branch SW. 2009-11-07T12:30:47 Official games on SW, unofficial games on SW2 2009-11-07T12:31:09 We're not exactly superb at getting our second wikis up and running. 2009-11-07T12:31:14 Possible... but unnecessary 2009-11-07T12:31:30 And way more work standardizing a second wiki as well 2009-11-07T12:31:31 ouch >_<; 2009-11-07T12:31:34 Let's flag games on these lines and set whether to view them in Preferences. 2009-11-07T12:31:41 lol 2009-11-07T12:31:45 you can code the extension :P 2009-11-07T12:31:52 Not it! 2009-11-07T12:32:09 * Notmyhandle doesn't look at Skizzerz 2009-11-07T12:32:20 Anyway, please tell me how having non-notable games hurts the wiki. 2009-11-07T12:32:41 I also don't understand an exclusionary policy 2009-11-07T12:32:53 * Procyon stares at the ground... 2009-11-07T12:32:56 Wait. 2009-11-07T12:32:59 it distracts focus 2009-11-07T12:33:02 Let's continue this at the next meeting. 2009-11-07T12:33:17 Prod: who's focus 2009-11-07T12:33:20 the site 2009-11-07T12:33:22 See, I get Prod's argument... 2009-11-07T12:33:30 Yeah, I'd argue that the site's focus is the editors' focus. 2009-11-07T12:33:37 It's just hard to dictate focus on anyone. 2009-11-07T12:33:38 We don't set it. 2009-11-07T12:33:44 Exactly proc 2009-11-07T12:33:45 Naj: 2009-11-07T12:33:50 From Prod's point of view, 2009-11-07T12:34:01 he would prefer to encourage editors t owork on guides that are going to attract readers. 2009-11-07T12:34:06 Non-notable games don't do that. 2009-11-07T12:34:12 I don't think it works like that. 2009-11-07T12:34:18 There's no hobson's choice here. 2009-11-07T12:34:21 Official AAA title games that wikicheats works on does that. 2009-11-07T12:34:23 I belive new editors are not attracted to any game they aren't playing 2009-11-07T12:34:24 If you cant' edit what you want you just leave. 2009-11-07T12:34:50 And that is the right counter argument to Pro'ds rgument. 2009-11-07T12:34:58 If we start out allowing everything... 2009-11-07T12:35:01 And the site grows... 2009-11-07T12:35:09 There's also this thing called "Knowledge" 2009-11-07T12:35:09 We can have Milk project rewards for just notable games. 2009-11-07T12:35:12 (najzere): so why don't we add in board games too? 2009-11-07T12:35:14 and card games? 2009-11-07T12:35:15 That will use incentive, not exclusion. 2009-11-07T12:35:18 If people don't know what they're talking about, why would we encourage them to edit it? 2009-11-07T12:35:21 I have a question, about all these games - how high is the demand? 2009-11-07T12:35:22 Prod: good point. 2009-11-07T12:35:22 Prod: we want VIDEO games 2009-11-07T12:35:27 We need a Prime Directive. 2009-11-07T12:35:30 We have VIDEO monopoly 2009-11-07T12:35:33 but then we're restricting scope 2009-11-07T12:35:33 Do people WANT to see a guide about that? 2009-11-07T12:35:37 people want to edit what they want 2009-11-07T12:35:42 i would love a guide about checkers 2009-11-07T12:35:51 Wikibooks has one. 2009-11-07T12:35:52 i'd start it 2009-11-07T12:35:57 Now you're talking. 2009-11-07T12:36:00 I think restricting scope to a topic is different than excluding subgenres 2009-11-07T12:36:01 but we can be better 2009-11-07T12:36:07 Like having a wiki on books and then saying no text books 2009-11-07T12:36:10 As you can see, scope can be arbitrarily open. 2009-11-07T12:36:14 exactly 2009-11-07T12:36:17 which is why you pick rules 2009-11-07T12:36:18 Right 2009-11-07T12:36:20 So we should start big and refine it down to where we're comfortable. 2009-11-07T12:36:37 A "video" game is pretty easy to define. 2009-11-07T12:36:37 All in favor of restricting scope to games played on electronic devices? 2009-11-07T12:36:44 Aye 2009-11-07T12:36:51 i'm not including those things you get in cereal boxes 2009-11-07T12:36:57 Awww 2009-11-07T12:36:58 Anything that requires controllers for input, a monitor for output, and a processor to execute. 2009-11-07T12:36:59 Why not? 2009-11-07T12:37:07 They take strategy 2009-11-07T12:37:08 lol 2009-11-07T12:37:15 After we decide to stick to electronic games, we can narrow from there. 2009-11-07T12:37:16 what if they're demos of real games? 2009-11-07T12:37:19 That's another important distinction... 2009-11-07T12:37:22 CHEX QUEST 2009-11-07T12:37:23 Eventually we'll get to where we're comfortable. 2009-11-07T12:37:26 we don't currently host guides for Game & Watch games. 2009-11-07T12:37:45 (I want to include them on GameWiki.com) 2009-11-07T12:37:46 though we do galleries i believe 2009-11-07T12:38:04 And we say we have the digital versions of them 2009-11-07T12:38:07 Anyone in favor of hosting single-purpose handheld games? 2009-11-07T12:38:18 ie. mctoys 2009-11-07T12:38:26 NMH: They can be included into the G&W Gallery games for the GBC an GBA 2009-11-07T12:38:27 er. mcvideo games 2009-11-07T12:38:28 Or Tiger's huge line. 2009-11-07T12:38:38 I'm against them. 2009-11-07T12:38:46 Due to depth. 2009-11-07T12:38:47 I'm against them for SW, and for them for GW 2009-11-07T12:39:03 Actually, 2009-11-07T12:39:06 I don't care. I don't play them. 2009-11-07T12:39:09 Haha 2009-11-07T12:39:12 But you edit the wiki! 2009-11-07T12:39:18 So I can help 2009-11-07T12:39:21 But I won't know anything 2009-11-07T12:39:23 they will be included when I start a guide for G&W Gallery 1 through 4 anyway/ 2009-11-07T12:39:36 So where are we at anyway? 2009-11-07T12:39:44 In like 20 years from now... 2009-11-07T12:39:45 We've been in meeting for 1:45. 2009-11-07T12:39:48 I have a feeling one of the underlying issues is, "What is gaming?" A lot of these tiny games can technically fall under it, especially with today's casual gaming crowd 2009-11-07T12:39:54 Yeah, we should wrap up. 2009-11-07T12:39:57 Anyone want to get take out? 2009-11-07T12:39:59 Let's do tgus,. 2009-11-07T12:40:05 NMH: LOL 2009-11-07T12:40:08 Let's do this: 2009-11-07T12:40:17 I have a bunch of small things if everyone's up for it. 2009-11-07T12:40:29 Can we compile a list of guides that we currently hst that could be considered questionable? 2009-11-07T12:40:45 http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Category:ROM_hacks 2009-11-07T12:40:51 I have been through all our completion stage 0 and 1 guides, and I can say that there are a bunch. 2009-11-07T12:41:24 OK, 2009-11-07T12:41:29 here's what I'd like to do, 2009-11-07T12:41:39 Just to get a feel for where everybody is, 2009-11-07T12:41:51 Let's do a quick vote on the remaining categories. 2009-11-07T12:42:01 Nothing to decide, just your personal feeling. 2009-11-07T12:42:02 They all go together 2009-11-07T12:42:11 NMH: again, I disagree, 2009-11-07T12:42:12 Let's do it anyway. 2009-11-07T12:42:16 but we're not deciding on anything. 2009-11-07T12:42:21 I just want to see how people feel. 2009-11-07T12:42:37 Indie Games: All or None. 2009-11-07T12:42:39 All 2009-11-07T12:42:42 All 2009-11-07T12:42:45 All 2009-11-07T12:42:46 All 2009-11-07T12:43:04 (For the record, this means entirely exclusively original content, no copyrighted stuff) 2009-11-07T12:43:07 Prod? 2009-11-07T12:43:08 All (with some kind of proper definiton fo indie) 2009-11-07T12:43:13 Fair enough. 2009-11-07T12:43:26 LOL@Prod's conditions. 2009-11-07T12:43:27 I'd say go for it. 2009-11-07T12:43:27 Fan games like SM63 and Pokemon Universe 2009-11-07T12:43:33 All 2009-11-07T12:43:37 None 2009-11-07T12:43:40 none 2009-11-07T12:43:55 Rocky and NMH? 2009-11-07T12:43:56 Depends on demand, I think. 2009-11-07T12:44:07 Arrow: Your personal feelings. 2009-11-07T12:44:07 All (as long as they have depth) 2009-11-07T12:44:13 All 2009-11-07T12:44:28 Arrow? 2009-11-07T12:44:38 double or nothing arrow :) 2009-11-07T12:44:41 lol 2009-11-07T12:44:42 I don't know, it'd depend on whether people want one >.> 2009-11-07T12:44:48 Think he wasn't "some". 2009-11-07T12:44:50 wants* 2009-11-07T12:44:51 Then you're saying all :) 2009-11-07T12:44:57 i'd read that as none :P 2009-11-07T12:44:57 OK, 2009-11-07T12:44:59 Do people want a guide for these? 2009-11-07T12:45:08 If we have to delete it, then yes. 2009-11-07T12:45:19 Arrow: Ask it the way naj would: Do people want to edit a guide for them? 2009-11-07T12:45:26 (Arrow): http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Super_Mario_63 2009-11-07T12:45:46 Doesn't look popular enough for me, so I would say no there. 2009-11-07T12:45:49 OK, we'll let Arrow sit on that one for a whlie. 2009-11-07T12:45:52 Heh. 2009-11-07T12:45:57 Flash games, without regard to notabliity: 2009-11-07T12:45:59 None 2009-11-07T12:46:00 All 2009-11-07T12:46:02 none 2009-11-07T12:46:12 lol, I think I see where this is going. 2009-11-07T12:46:15 though, i wouldn't be totally against flash sites 2009-11-07T12:46:16 Some 2009-11-07T12:46:22 I dont think any "unauthorized" games should be included 2009-11-07T12:46:23 Half of the flash games I play don't require guides 2009-11-07T12:46:24 as long as they only host originals 2009-11-07T12:46:31 Some (depends on depth again) 2009-11-07T12:46:34 Authorized by who? 2009-11-07T12:46:35 ie. i'd support neopets 2009-11-07T12:46:37 I'm following NMH 2009-11-07T12:46:37 but not armorgames 2009-11-07T12:46:42 (i think) 2009-11-07T12:46:44 I'd avoid Neopets personally 2009-11-07T12:46:49 lol 2009-11-07T12:46:51 Yeah fuck Neopets. 2009-11-07T12:46:54 LOL 2009-11-07T12:46:55 Agreed 2009-11-07T12:46:56 hahaha 2009-11-07T12:46:56 The guide I"m for, however. 2009-11-07T12:46:57 You'd need a whole wiki for that 2009-11-07T12:46:58 lol 2009-11-07T12:47:06 Neopets is an MMO 2009-11-07T12:47:09 its expansive 2009-11-07T12:47:19 and we do get traffic to it 2009-11-07T12:47:22 OK, I see how this is going, and I'm coming to a better understanding of the situation. 2009-11-07T12:47:23 mostly "neopets freebies" 2009-11-07T12:47:23 lol 2009-11-07T12:47:33 The last one is Emulation guides, like our MAME guide. 2009-11-07T12:47:36 All 2009-11-07T12:47:38 I'm for all. 2009-11-07T12:47:41 All 2009-11-07T12:47:43 Wait, 2009-11-07T12:47:45 I take that back. 2009-11-07T12:48:02 I'm for some; under the condition that the system being emulated is no longer commercially available. 2009-11-07T12:48:11 * Prod is with Procyon 2009-11-07T12:48:14 That would include Dreamcast emulators, but not PS2 emus. 2009-11-07T12:48:16 I'll go that way too 2009-11-07T12:48:22 Again, morals at play 2009-11-07T12:48:24 dreamcast is still around 2009-11-07T12:48:26 What about Playstation emulators? 2009-11-07T12:48:28 it's not morals 2009-11-07T12:48:33 Not commercially. 2009-11-07T12:48:35 eugh... I take that back 2009-11-07T12:48:36 For some it is. 2009-11-07T12:48:37 it's practicallity 2009-11-07T12:48:46 Naj: Where? 2009-11-07T12:48:47 Our guides are legally neutral 2009-11-07T12:48:51 We can cover whatever we want 2009-11-07T12:48:52 You. 2009-11-07T12:49:08 Naj: Me? 2009-11-07T12:49:12 huh? 2009-11-07T12:49:14 What was the question? 2009-11-07T12:49:17 LOL 2009-11-07T12:49:19 Where am I. 2009-11-07T12:49:24 Where is the DC commercially available? 2009-11-07T12:49:25 Who are you people? 2009-11-07T12:49:27 North Dakota? 2009-11-07T12:49:30 Ebay 2009-11-07T12:49:32 Really? :o 2009-11-07T12:49:39 ebay is not commercial. 2009-11-07T12:49:42 Notmyhandle: That argument can be made for any system :p 2009-11-07T12:49:44 They make money off of it 2009-11-07T12:49:45 Oh, I mean SOME people are making a moral decision. 2009-11-07T12:49:49 Sega is not. 2009-11-07T12:50:02 NMH: Ebay is making money off of Ataris too. 2009-11-07T12:50:04 if it's still reasonably available in the 2nd hand market 2009-11-07T12:50:06 it's fine 2009-11-07T12:50:14 It's because they are no longer licensed 2009-11-07T12:50:16 but some of the really old stuff is not available at all 2009-11-07T12:50:17 No, it has to be all or none. 2009-11-07T12:50:23 To avoid these debates. 2009-11-07T12:50:24 and the media that holds the game is probably dead 2009-11-07T12:50:30 essentially MAME is it 2009-11-07T12:50:31 the rest is none 2009-11-07T12:50:51 That's no good :( 2009-11-07T12:50:57 I don't have any issues explaining what the emulators are and what they do 2009-11-07T12:51:02 Wait, are we talking about guides for emulators? 2009-11-07T12:51:03 Or how to get them set up. 2009-11-07T12:51:05 You know what's funny, there's emuwiki, 2009-11-07T12:51:06 Or emulator categories? 2009-11-07T12:51:15 guides for emulators. 2009-11-07T12:51:17 Guides for emus 2009-11-07T12:51:18 Oh. 2009-11-07T12:51:34 Kind of out of our scope in the same way a lot things are. 2009-11-07T12:51:47 Not for the same reasons as game guides though. 2009-11-07T12:52:09 I'm for none then, as long as we can preserve the existing guides somewhere. 2009-11-07T12:52:17 mame is the only one 2009-11-07T12:52:30 I've personally used the MAME guide, and I like it. 2009-11-07T12:52:42 i say mame is the only one we keep 2009-11-07T12:52:48 everything else is none 2009-11-07T12:52:48 Not sure what SW has to do with it though, since it's not a game. 2009-11-07T12:52:58 How is MAME different? 2009-11-07T12:52:59 neither are companies :P 2009-11-07T12:53:03 it's a fringe 2009-11-07T12:53:10 Well, we except ALL companies... 2009-11-07T12:53:22 i don't even want to get into scope there :P 2009-11-07T12:53:26 Haha. 2009-11-07T12:53:36 we accept companies that our guides get categorized under 2009-11-07T12:53:37 As RobJ would say "what does that have to do with beating a game?" 2009-11-07T12:53:43 Yeah. 2009-11-07T12:54:05 Prod: So you don't see any value in hosting a guide on how to properly use, say, Stella (Atari 2600) or VGBA? 2009-11-07T12:54:24 stella, perhaps, definately not vgba 2009-11-07T12:54:24 I thought they still sold GBA games 2009-11-07T12:54:27 I think all the system categories could have a basic use section. 2009-11-07T12:54:28 Or better yet, 2009-11-07T12:54:31 UAE 2009-11-07T12:54:40 (Commodore Amiga, which is fucken complicated to emulate) 2009-11-07T12:54:57 but those are all much simpler to use t he emulator for 2009-11-07T12:55:03 however 2009-11-07T12:55:07 Oh I see what you're saying. 2009-11-07T12:55:08 one change to the current mame guide 2009-11-07T12:55:17 We don't currently categorize like that though. 2009-11-07T12:55:24 Category:Emulators...no room for a guide. 2009-11-07T12:55:31 But MAME we have, so a guide is okay. 2009-11-07T12:55:35 Is that what you're saying? 2009-11-07T12:55:38 I agree with that. 2009-11-07T12:55:56 we need to get rid of the rom managers section from the mame guide 2009-11-07T12:55:57 I added a MAME category because the games it supports are only a subset of the Arcade category. 2009-11-07T12:56:00 does not belong at all 2009-11-07T12:56:17 Whereas, VBA plays the entire set of GBA games. 2009-11-07T12:56:49 two things for my agreement to keep mame guide 2009-11-07T12:56:54 OK, we officially hit the 2 hour mark. 2009-11-07T12:56:58 it's useful and people are visiting it and getting us hits 2009-11-07T12:57:01 WTG all 2009-11-07T12:57:06 there's not a better one 2009-11-07T12:57:19 There isn't? :D 2009-11-07T12:57:26 not that i know of 2009-11-07T12:57:31 Me either. 2009-11-07T12:57:33 I did work pretty hard on it ^_^ 2009-11-07T12:57:38 if someone else were willing to host it, i'd mourn the loss of the page hits, but i wouldn't mind 2009-11-07T12:57:50 Yeah, I should talk to emuwiki about that. 2009-11-07T12:58:00 It may be keeping our link on MAMEWorld. 2009-11-07T12:58:10 Not sure how that came about. 2009-11-07T12:58:19 Probably me...? 2009-11-07T12:58:26 You...don't know? 2009-11-07T12:58:37 It was a couple of years ago. 2009-11-07T12:58:41 :P 2009-11-07T12:58:46 You put the link on there? 2009-11-07T12:58:50 I finished the guide, and I'm pretty sure I posted the link to the forums. 2009-11-07T12:58:56 Ah, cool. 2009-11-07T12:59:02 Wait, which link are you talking about specifically? 2009-11-07T12:59:08 On the MAMEWorld front page. 2009-11-07T12:59:24 omg, I din't even know about that :O 2009-11-07T12:59:27 haha. 2009-11-07T12:59:34 I added it to our WP article the other day. 2009-11-07T12:59:45 That's awesome! :D 2009-11-07T12:59:56 Prod, did you know about that? 2009-11-07T13:00:02 So I don't know what would happen if we got rid of the MAME guide. 2009-11-07T13:00:06 I mean, it's buried half way down the page, but that's a great link to have. 2009-11-07T13:00:09 no 2009-11-07T13:00:09 In regards to that link anyway. 2009-11-07T13:00:11 just saw it 2009-11-07T13:00:12 it's cool ;D 2009-11-07T13:00:19 OK, let's wrap this up, 2009-11-07T13:00:26 and save the rest of the discussion for next month. 2009-11-07T13:00:31 Oof. 2009-11-07T13:00:53 If anyone still hanging around has any issues they want to address, the floor is open. 2009-11-07T13:01:10 Compilation completion stages. 2009-11-07T13:01:14 :D 2009-11-07T13:01:17 that's been discussed 2009-11-07T13:01:17 Why are they dependent on the underlying guides? 2009-11-07T13:01:21 Oh it has? 2009-11-07T13:01:21 and decided upon 2009-11-07T13:01:23 yes 2009-11-07T13:01:31 what was decided? 2009-11-07T13:01:31 Okay then. 2009-11-07T13:01:33 * Prod has forgotten 2009-11-07T13:01:47 hehe 2009-11-07T13:01:51 I remember that we decided upon that... 2009-11-07T13:01:58 I don't know if I fully support the decision, 2009-11-07T13:01:58 that it would be pointless to mark a compilation as cs4 if none of the games were finished 2009-11-07T13:02:04 I take it this was on the forums then. 2009-11-07T13:02:10 but I understand the argument behind it. 2009-11-07T13:02:12 It was either on forums or CI 2009-11-07T13:02:18 so what is the policy? 2009-11-07T13:02:29 Skiz: it kind of depends on what you mean by completion. 2009-11-07T13:02:29 Well, I was going to suggest taking the completion stage off at all. 2009-11-07T13:02:32 (and i may suggest we revise it now) 2009-11-07T13:02:33 I think the current policy is basing it on the completion stage of the games it contains 2009-11-07T13:02:33 Since it's not a guide. 2009-11-07T13:02:34 It can be argued either way. 2009-11-07T13:02:34 compilation becomes CS4 when all games become CS4 2009-11-07T13:02:53 Hard to track or bad information... 2009-11-07T13:02:54 Heh. 2009-11-07T13:02:55 Compilation = lowest level CS of one of its guides 2009-11-07T13:03:06 ok, apparently we have a lot of options here.... 2009-11-07T13:03:09 right now 2009-11-07T13:03:15 Okay, well remember to update any compilations your guide is a part of.. 2009-11-07T13:03:16 i have a bot that can update cs's on compilations 2009-11-07T13:03:23 i run it weekly 2009-11-07T13:03:28 Well then that's cool. 2009-11-07T13:03:29 the question is the rules it should follow 2009-11-07T13:03:35 right now 2009-11-07T13:03:38 it goes by average cs 2009-11-07T13:03:45 non-existent guides = 0 2009-11-07T13:03:59 It will never be technically accurate so who cares? 2009-11-07T13:04:18 The compilation page will go from zero to four without looking any different. 2009-11-07T13:04:28 I think Bottom line > Average for compilation CS 2009-11-07T13:04:36 Okay. 2009-11-07T13:04:43 Empty walkthrough pages: why keep them? 2009-11-07T13:04:49 one sec 2009-11-07T13:04:50 so 2009-11-07T13:04:55 Naj: Example? 2009-11-07T13:05:00 All over the place. 2009-11-07T13:05:03 Yeah 2009-11-07T13:05:04 for cs, average or floor? 2009-11-07T13:05:08 average 2009-11-07T13:05:09 floor = lowest 2009-11-07T13:05:13 average 2009-11-07T13:05:19 I'm in favor of average, 2009-11-07T13:05:25 average requires more work 2009-11-07T13:05:28 it's already done 2009-11-07T13:05:29 no, 2009-11-07T13:05:33 Prod botted it 2009-11-07T13:05:37 fine 2009-11-07T13:05:46 if its handled by a bot, its not mine to handle 2009-11-07T13:05:47 and it only goes to 4 when all are 4 2009-11-07T13:05:54 Cool. 2009-11-07T13:05:58 objections? 2009-11-07T13:06:03 10 seconds... 2009-11-07T13:06:07 nay 2009-11-07T13:06:10 Don't wait that long.. 2009-11-07T13:06:11 Heh. 2009-11-07T13:06:15 10 seconds is up 2009-11-07T13:06:19 so bot goes as it is 2009-11-07T13:06:19 I think we agree 2009-11-07T13:06:20 :) 2009-11-07T13:06:34 (najzere): next was empty walkthroug hpages 2009-11-07T13:06:38 Yes. 2009-11-07T13:06:45 Empty pages look bad. 2009-11-07T13:06:52 We don't need a surrogate toc. 2009-11-07T13:06:59 Naj: Gimme one example. 2009-11-07T13:07:01 ToC is too easy to get to from anywhere in the guid.e 2009-11-07T13:07:05 Proc: How? 2009-11-07T13:07:13 There's no empty walkthrough category. 2009-11-07T13:07:17 Do you mean a WT page that has nothing but a header and a footer and nothing else, no content? 2009-11-07T13:07:20 Minimal content? http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Torchlight/Walkthrough 2009-11-07T13:07:22 Yes. 2009-11-07T13:07:24 (Procyon): he's talking about guides where the /walkthrough page just has navs 2009-11-07T13:07:28 ok 2009-11-07T13:07:33 That means its a stub 2009-11-07T13:07:34 No, Torchlight WT is good. 2009-11-07T13:07:37 o_O 2009-11-07T13:07:45 Empty walkthrough page = work required 2009-11-07T13:07:46 I mean literally empty. 2009-11-07T13:07:50 Whitespace. 2009-11-07T13:07:52 If no one ever intends to edit the WT, it should redirect to the first WT subpage. 2009-11-07T13:07:53 no image 2009-11-07T13:07:54 no text 2009-11-07T13:07:55 just naves 2009-11-07T13:07:57 navs * 2009-11-07T13:07:59 Redirect? 2009-11-07T13:08:01 Wut 2009-11-07T13:08:02 Yeah we're not saying its CS4 lol 2009-11-07T13:08:03 no redirects 2009-11-07T13:08:12 It should be a red link in the guide, so people know we need it. 2009-11-07T13:08:19 I think that makes sense 2009-11-07T13:08:20 my feeling is 2009-11-07T13:08:20 lets do it 2009-11-07T13:08:23 But then where does the WT link in the header and CN go to? 2009-11-07T13:08:26 if there is guide info in subpages 2009-11-07T13:08:28 we have /WT 2009-11-07T13:08:32 2 different discussions here 2009-11-07T13:08:33 otherwise delete it if it's just navs 2009-11-07T13:08:35 To a red link for you to edit, like any other link on wikis. 2009-11-07T13:08:52 oh, 2009-11-07T13:08:56 I see. 2009-11-07T13:09:00 *** Baejung92 has joined #SW-Meeting 2009-11-07T13:09:01 Then I'm for deleting them. 2009-11-07T13:09:03 What does having content in subpages have to do with it? 2009-11-07T13:09:04 Hey bae 2009-11-07T13:09:08 Delete empty walkthrough pages 2009-11-07T13:09:09 the secondary toc 2009-11-07T13:09:09 hello 2009-11-07T13:09:11 yes it's available 2009-11-07T13:09:18 Secondardy toc? 2009-11-07T13:09:21 but it's also a good place for incoming links 2009-11-07T13:09:36 huh? 2009-11-07T13:09:37 What is a secondary ToC? 2009-11-07T13:09:44 you've got the toc on the front page 2009-11-07T13:09:44 You WANT people to go to an empty page? 2009-11-07T13:09:57 only if there's useful places it links to 2009-11-07T13:09:58 Oh, you mean a REDUNDANT toc. 2009-11-07T13:10:04 Yeah, I'm against those. 2009-11-07T13:10:06 call it what you will :P 2009-11-07T13:10:10 Heh. 2009-11-07T13:10:17 Okay, let's think about it for next time. 2009-11-07T13:10:21 Prod, we're saying its better to be honest and say the page is completely empty. 2009-11-07T13:10:24 some people don't figure out the show button 2009-11-07T13:10:25 Naj, so you don't think the FN on a WT page should be open by default? 2009-11-07T13:10:31 nono 2009-11-07T13:10:34 We are against redundant ToC's through policy 2009-11-07T13:10:34 Yes definitely. 2009-11-07T13:10:38 We've always removed them 2009-11-07T13:10:38 he says the whole page should be deleted 2009-11-07T13:10:47 It should if there's nothing there 2009-11-07T13:10:49 *empty page 2009-11-07T13:10:49 It's dishonest 2009-11-07T13:10:53 Yeah. 2009-11-07T13:10:58 People will be pissed if they go to it 2009-11-07T13:11:02 Heh. 2009-11-07T13:11:03 i think we've got like 3 or 4 overlapping discussions going 2009-11-07T13:11:09 yeah 2009-11-07T13:11:10 Yeah, ahaah. 2009-11-07T13:11:13 Yup 2009-11-07T13:11:18 here's the case 2009-11-07T13:11:20 new guide starting 2009-11-07T13:11:22 (Well at least we all agree on that) 2009-11-07T13:11:25 so far only front page 2009-11-07T13:11:31 person creates empty walkthrough page 2009-11-07T13:11:34 with navs 2009-11-07T13:11:35 lies, we have 5 2009-11-07T13:11:41 shh 2009-11-07T13:11:44 :P 2009-11-07T13:11:44 lol 2009-11-07T13:11:54 that's the situation 2009-11-07T13:11:55 the question is 2009-11-07T13:11:58 do we delete the walkthrough page 2009-11-07T13:12:00 Yes 2009-11-07T13:12:02 in this case i say yes 2009-11-07T13:12:03 Yes 2009-11-07T13:12:06 Agreed 2009-11-07T13:12:09 Or don't start it. :/ 2009-11-07T13:12:11 yes 2009-11-07T13:12:13 now, the person instead goes on to create a few subpages 2009-11-07T13:12:18 some of the sub walkthrough pages 2009-11-07T13:12:24 Well, I imagine the people who creates it doesn't know better. 2009-11-07T13:12:24 but leaves the walkthrough page empty 2009-11-07T13:12:36 that case i say we leave it 2009-11-07T13:12:41 well as someone with knowledge, you can summarize the walkthrough section 2009-11-07T13:12:42 I say delete. 2009-11-07T13:12:43 ooof 2009-11-07T13:12:48 I don't think that changes anything Prod 2009-11-07T13:12:50 delete 2009-11-07T13:12:50 Yeah, there has to be SOMETHING. 2009-11-07T13:12:59 it has useful links 2009-11-07T13:13:03 ? 2009-11-07T13:13:05 So does the toc. 2009-11-07T13:13:07 The ToC has useful links 2009-11-07T13:13:07 Sometimes I have a tough time coming up with something to say for a very linear game. 2009-11-07T13:13:07 and people are likely to get to us by searching for walkthrough 2009-11-07T13:13:13 so they are likely to hit the walkthrough page first 2009-11-07T13:13:14 It, like the walkthough, is one click away. 2009-11-07T13:13:26 Proc: yeah the walkthrough section is painful for me. 2009-11-07T13:13:27 We want them to see an empty page? 2009-11-07T13:13:35 The walkthrough for Gears of War is to start on the first level, and progress through each continuing level. 2009-11-07T13:13:39 anyone remember karlcsr? 2009-11-07T13:13:44 I love KArl 2009-11-07T13:13:45 yup 2009-11-07T13:13:46 vaguely 2009-11-07T13:13:50 Let's at "THIS PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK" to them. 2009-11-07T13:13:51 yup 2009-11-07T13:13:53 R.I.P. Karl 2009-11-07T13:14:04 add* 2009-11-07T13:14:14 lol 2009-11-07T13:14:17 I just can't think of a single blank page I've been to on WP. 2009-11-07T13:14:19 How about... not. 2009-11-07T13:14:21 Or any wiki for that matter. 2009-11-07T13:14:22 There's alway SOMETHING to say... 2009-11-07T13:14:31 gamerwiki :P 2009-11-07T13:14:33 But if they don't say it... 2009-11-07T13:14:38 Naj: Cuz we mandate the existence of those pages. 2009-11-07T13:14:42 najzere: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BlankPage 2009-11-07T13:14:43 Even gamerwiki just leaves their red links. 2009-11-07T13:14:48 Header/Footer nav does NOT equal content. 2009-11-07T13:14:51 Delete 2009-11-07T13:15:05 Skizzerz, is that really not just a developer joke? 2009-11-07T13:15:15 no, it serves a valid developer purpose 2009-11-07T13:15:15 We mandate three subpages minimum... ToC, Getting Started, and Walkthrough. 2009-11-07T13:15:19 it's used for benchmarking 2009-11-07T13:15:27 I've heard that, but don't see how it's used. 2009-11-07T13:15:30 (And don't get me started on the naming convention for Getting Started... I'm still sour about that) 2009-11-07T13:15:33 GS is optional :P 2009-11-07T13:15:36 Off topic 2009-11-07T13:15:44 Yes, we should change them all to "Getting started". 2009-11-07T13:15:50 No it's not. 2009-11-07T13:15:53 It's on the CN 2009-11-07T13:15:58 or controls :P 2009-11-07T13:16:00 It defaults to Controls with no GS 2009-11-07T13:16:05 oh 2009-11-07T13:16:06 GS is a required heading, but optional link 2009-11-07T13:16:09 ok 2009-11-07T13:16:14 Anywayz... 2009-11-07T13:16:32 (najzere): start a forum thread :P 2009-11-07T13:16:40 Yeah, hold your breath, okay? 2009-11-07T13:16:43 the forum threads are more for tracking 2009-11-07T13:16:50 I'm fine with killing blank WT pages. 2009-11-07T13:16:55 me too 2009-11-07T13:17:05 i say kill the ones where toc is useless 2009-11-07T13:17:16 and i'd prefer to keep the rest 2009-11-07T13:17:18 When is the ToC useless? o_O; 2009-11-07T13:17:19 but we discuss next time 2009-11-07T13:17:26 Well, let's make a decision next time. 2009-11-07T13:17:30 Damn, stop ninja'ing me. 2009-11-07T13:17:31 ok 2009-11-07T13:17:33 lol 2009-11-07T13:17:42 Let's wrap this meeting up, 2009-11-07T13:17:43 Disambiguation pages. 2009-11-07T13:17:46 Okay, n/m 2009-11-07T13:17:46 We accomplished a lot. 2009-11-07T13:17:50 No, no, 2009-11-07T13:17:52 go ahead. 2009-11-07T13:17:58 KILL KILL KILL!! 2009-11-07T13:18:01 Well, I've started some. 2009-11-07T13:18:02 *cough * 2009-11-07T13:18:02 Haha. 2009-11-07T13:18:02 lol 2009-11-07T13:18:11 I like the dracula disambig page 2009-11-07T13:18:18 i want it dead :) 2009-11-07T13:18:22 http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Dracula_%28disambiguation%29 2009-11-07T13:18:38 Let's also table this one, but think about it for next time. 2009-11-07T13:18:39 not undead, dead 2009-11-07T13:18:53 I feel that this will take some discussing. 2009-11-07T13:19:00 start a thread!!! 2009-11-07T13:19:01 :D 2009-11-07T13:19:13 for the agenda for next week 2009-11-07T13:19:14 true 2009-11-07T13:19:15 Next: please put your opinion on the control table style discussion on staff lounge. 2009-11-07T13:19:17 next month * 2009-11-07T13:19:19 start a thread 2009-11-07T13:19:23 link to it from the meeting thread 2009-11-07T13:19:27 I don't have a strong opinion :( 2009-11-07T13:19:33 Yeah you do 2009-11-07T13:19:34 And on collapsible infobox content. 2009-11-07T13:19:57 then I believe Deviance had one thing about the rc feed after we finish this 2009-11-07T13:19:59 OK, I have NMH's strong opinion 2009-11-07T13:20:06 ahaha 2009-11-07T13:20:12 You know what? All my points aren't going to take a short time so just forget about it until next time. 2009-11-07T13:20:25 Next meeting = naj's meeting ;) 2009-11-07T13:20:25 I just want to know the status on MultipleUpload. 2009-11-07T13:20:35 More like Scope's meeting. 2009-11-07T13:20:37 (najzere): there's some weird bug i can't get rid of 2009-11-07T13:20:41 Oh sweet MultipleUpload... how I miss thee. 2009-11-07T13:20:42 Okay, thanks. 2009-11-07T13:20:52 we incinerated it, along with the weighted companion cube 2009-11-07T13:20:53 Foul temptress... 2009-11-07T13:20:57 That's all from me. 2009-11-07T13:21:01 The cake is a lie,. 2009-11-07T13:21:13 I'd just like to say that although I'm open for everything as far as scope goes, I'm MORE for a policy we can enforce. 2009-11-07T13:21:31 What about RSS feed? 2009-11-07T13:21:39 I have some stuff if Deviance doesnt talk 2009-11-07T13:21:41 there is now an rss feed.... 2009-11-07T13:21:50 it's in #strategywiki-rc 2009-11-07T13:21:51 Of what specifically? 2009-11-07T13:21:55 recent changes 2009-11-07T13:22:00 oh cool 2009-11-07T13:22:01 recent changes 2009-11-07T13:22:12 usually up most pf the time 2009-11-07T13:22:14 It has been extremely helpful the past couple weeks. 2009-11-07T13:22:41 I think double posts have been eliminated as well. 2009-11-07T13:22:49 Deviance: you mentioned near the beginning that you wanted to talk about it in some regard, care to elaborate? 2009-11-07T13:22:57 Slightly on-topic, slightly off-topic, but I've been thinking of using the Facebook group to announce when I complete guides... 2009-11-07T13:23:03 that was it 2009-11-07T13:23:07 Go ahead 2009-11-07T13:23:13 Not sure how useful it would be. 2009-11-07T13:23:15 Thanks Deviance! 2009-11-07T13:23:19 Anything helps 2009-11-07T13:23:22 no prob 2009-11-07T13:23:27 Alright i have something 2009-11-07T13:23:39 Prod do you have the class we talked about last night? 2009-11-07T13:23:42 Never ending meeting ftw ^_^ 2009-11-07T13:23:44 For the tooltip exploration 2009-11-07T13:23:46 vaguely 2009-11-07T13:23:50 I can't find it in the logs 2009-11-07T13:23:55 ? 2009-11-07T13:23:59 oh right 2009-11-07T13:24:00 tooltips 2009-11-07T13:24:01 yeah 2009-11-07T13:24:16 essentially, nmh wants a new tooltip type control 2009-11-07T13:24:17 I brought up the issue last night with Prod and Najzere about looking into JS concerning pop-up tooltips 2009-11-07T13:24:27 I wasn't there. :/ 2009-11-07T13:24:33 it whas Rhonlore 2009-11-07T13:24:34 lol 2009-11-07T13:24:38 Heh. 2009-11-07T13:24:39 ah yes 2009-11-07T13:24:42 anyways 2009-11-07T13:24:47 It has been a very attractive feature of individual wikis such as WoWWiki 2009-11-07T13:24:55 I like tooltips 2009-11-07T13:25:00 * najzere nods. 2009-11-07T13:25:02 (Notmyhandle): make some kind of mockup of how you want it used here (paint or something) 2009-11-07T13:25:03 And I felt that if we were to compete with these, we should be able to mimic such a great feature 2009-11-07T13:25:09 Oh sure 2009-11-07T13:25:13 and start a thread and bring it up at the next meeting :) 2009-11-07T13:25:20 Anyways, Prod had a class that I forgot to copy 2009-11-07T13:25:23 to try and test out 2009-11-07T13:25:31 the one from the tags 2009-11-07T13:25:34 sure sure 2009-11-07T13:25:35 articletag or something 2009-11-07T13:25:38 right 2009-11-07T13:25:46 next month 2009-11-07T13:25:48 Alright thats settled for now 2009-11-07T13:25:52 Next topic 2009-11-07T13:25:56 Redirect categorization 2009-11-07T13:26:01 OH yeah! 2009-11-07T13:26:04 Should redirects be categorized with the date? 2009-11-07T13:26:08 gwah? 2009-11-07T13:26:10 This is for alternate names 2009-11-07T13:26:13 I.e. Biohazard 4 2009-11-07T13:26:17 for Resident Evil 4 2009-11-07T13:26:18 * Prod votes no 2009-11-07T13:26:19 no dates 2009-11-07T13:26:22 no dates 2009-11-07T13:26:26 Why wouldn't it be categorized for everything? 2009-11-07T13:26:29 only system, company, and Games 2009-11-07T13:26:33 Should redirects be categorized with the date? Yes: the redirect represents a game that was released. Should it be the first date? No, the regionalization occured at a specific time. That is the time it should be categorized at. 2009-11-07T13:26:48 Yes 2009-11-07T13:26:50 and genre 2009-11-07T13:26:50 Therefore, Biohazard 4 should be categorized with the japanese release date, not the US 2009-11-07T13:26:51 That makes sense to me. 2009-11-07T13:26:52 They really should,. 2009-11-07T13:26:56 Ok 2009-11-07T13:26:58 Exactly. 2009-11-07T13:27:00 I will modify the instructions 2009-11-07T13:27:02 i say forget dates 2009-11-07T13:27:02 Thank you 2009-11-07T13:27:03 Not that anyone looks in a date category, but if they did, they should find the correct game names. 2009-11-07T13:27:04 they don't help much 2009-11-07T13:27:08 noone looks for a release by date 2009-11-07T13:27:10 Next topic 2009-11-07T13:27:11 Our dating categories are a serious issue,. 2009-11-07T13:27:18 What just happened? 2009-11-07T13:27:20 date categories are very muchso unused 2009-11-07T13:27:32 i was always for the year cats, but not for the date cats. 2009-11-07T13:27:33 Notmyhandle: there is no next topic 2009-11-07T13:27:37 Cleanup Project "guide-ization" 2009-11-07T13:27:38 Haha. 2009-11-07T13:27:41 Prod did you want to address this? 2009-11-07T13:27:46 i'll wait :P 2009-11-07T13:27:48 k 2009-11-07T13:27:49 next month 2009-11-07T13:27:50 we're done 2009-11-07T13:27:51 I can as well. >:( 2009-11-07T13:27:55 lol 2009-11-07T13:27:58 *** Skizzerz sets mode: +mo Procyon 2009-11-07T13:28:03 XD 2009-11-07T13:28:07 right, let's finish this 2009-11-07T13:28:08 We CAN have mid-week meeting. 2009-11-07T13:28:12 Sorry, 2009-11-07T13:28:14 mid-month 2009-11-07T13:28:38 I will post the possibility of doing this on the forums. 2009-11-07T13:28:46 We can debate the need to do so there. 2009-11-07T13:29:04 Thanks everyone. I would continue, but I think people are getting tired and/or have other things to attend to. 2009-11-07T13:29:15 This was phenominally productive. 2009-11-07T13:29:46 Please edit Knights in the Nightmare as it is this month's collaboration 2009-11-07T13:29:56 We will, as usual, continue some of these discussions off-line and in next months meeting. 2009-11-07T13:30:20 I will keep you posted with news about GameWiki.com 2009-11-07T13:30:29 Thanks everyone, see you around.